Skip to Content

How Much 2,4-d Do You Need Per Gallon for Your Lawn? Let’s Find Out! (2023)

This site is supported by our readers. We may earn a commission, at no cost to you, if you purchase through links.

We know that taking care of your lawn is an important part of keeping it looking its best. But when it comes to using chemicals, such as 2,4-d herbicide on your lawn, you may not be sure how much to use or even what type of chemical to use.

In this article we’ll discuss everything you need to know about using 2,4-d herbicide on your lawn including the safety considerations and the best time for application so that you can get a beautiful and healthy yard without any negative consequences.

We will also answer the question – how much 24d per gallon should I add for my lawn? You’ll learn from Alex Kuritz’s expertise in professional turf management too!

Definition of 2,4-d Herbicide

how much 24d per gallon for lawnsWe understand that 2,4-D can be an effective herbicide for lawns, but it’s important to know how much of the product should be used per gallon in order to avoid any potential harm.

2,4-D is a systemic herbicide classified as an auxin-type weed killer which selectively kills broadleaf weeds by causing uncontrolled growth of cells.

Each brand comes with its own mixing ratio on the instructions label and most labels indicate that 2,4-D is rainproof one hour after application – safe to wait 6 or 8 hours if there’s no rain expected.

It has environmental impacts when not stored properly so organic alternatives are recommended for resistance management or proper storage of this powerful weed killer.

The amount needed depends on concentration levels and desired application rates; however, Hi Yield recommends 3 – 4 fluid ounces per 1 000 square feet for small areas at best time during spring season.

With these considerations in mind, we move onto exploring how exactly does this particular type of chemical work against undesired vegetation?

How 2,4-d Works

We understand that 2,4-D is a systemic herbicide and how it works to selectively kill broadleaf weeds. So let’s discuss the mixing ratio for this powerful weed killer when treating your lawn.

To effectively use 2,4-D on your lawns, it’s important to determine the right concentration of active ingredient in relation to water. Most brands of 2,4-D will have their own instructions label, which outlines the exact mixing ratios for different purposes, such as spot spraying or blanket spray applications.

Generally speaking, you should mix 3 ounces per gallon of water (or 1 part concentrate: 4 parts water) for every 400 square feet area being treated.

When using any kind of chemical-based product like an herbicide, make sure you read all safety instructions carefully before application, including soil temperature limitations – ideally below 90°F (32°C).

Also, bear in mind that some other plants such as flowers can be affected by these products, so if they are present, then take extra care while applying them.

Finally, remember to apply them at least 6 weeks after newly seeding or sodding your lawns to prevent retarding grass growth rate!

With these points kept in mind, we move onto Classification Of The Herbicides Used For Spotted Lambsquarter Control And Weed Prevention Strategies As Well As Surface Runoff Management And Soil Testing Protocols Along With Overlapping Herbicides.

Classification of 2,4-d

Classification of 2,4-dWe know that 2,4-D is an effective herbicide for broadleaf weeds, but we must take care to use the proper mixing ratio and application rate to maximize its effectiveness.

2,4-D is classified as an auxin-type herbicide and can have a detrimental environmental impact if not used with caution.

Organic alternatives are available which may be more desirable in certain situations; however, it should be noted that they may also have residual effects on soil health or local waterways due to their composition of naturally occurring substances.

For these reasons, it’s important that precautions are taken when using any chemical-based weed killer including 2,4-D, and proactive measures such as selecting appropriate timing for applications or avoiding overspray near sensitive areas like wetlands should always be considered before applying the product.

Safety of 2,4-d on Bermuda Grass

We want to make sure we use 2,4-D safely on our Bermuda grass lawns. While it’s mostly safe for use, there are some health risks and environmental impacts associated with its application.

Properly mixed at the right ratios and applied according to the instructions detailed in each brand’s label can help us minimize any potential ill effects from applying 2,4-D herbicide while still achieving good results in terms of weed prevention and proper maintenance of a healthy green turfgrass surface.

Additionally, taking care not to spray near flowering plants or other desirable vegetation will help reduce accidental damage due to overspray or drift from windy conditions during application time. This further reduces risk as well as making better stewardship choices for surrounding environments that may be impacted by runoff carrying chemicals into nearby habitats like streams or ponds where aquatic organisms could also sustain harm if exposed directly through contact with concentrated chemical mixtures contained within such runoffs after they leave treated areas following rains over time after applications have been made previously elsewhere upstream priorally speaking.

Better Option for St. Augustine Grass

Better Option for St. Augustine GrassFor St. Augustine grass, Trimec Southern Broadleaf Herbicide is a better option than 2,4-D weed killer. For example, one of our customers saw fast results with minimal damage to their lawn after using this product.

When compared to other alternative solutions such as organic herbicides or manual weeding methods that may take longer and cost more money while providing less control over the weeds present in your lawns, Trimec provides an effective yet eco-friendly solution with its active ingredients dicamba and 2,4-D Amine salt combined together.

Here are some advantages/disadvantages when it comes to choosing between these two options:

  • Advantages of using Trimec include faster results with less damage done on the desired vegetation in comparison to manually pulling out weeds or spraying them directly by hand. This can be time-consuming and labor-intensive at times. It also has fewer restrictions on where it can be applied due to its low toxicity levels, making it safe for use near people’s homes as well water sources like ponds and lakes without causing any environmental harm. This is unlike harsher chemical products like 2,4-D Weed Killer which carries higher risks if not used correctly according to directions given by manufacturers, such as avoiding contact within 1 hour of application period before rain causes wash off effects leading potential contamination issues nearby areas or aquatic lifeforms living downstream from sprayed terrain area(s).
  • Disadvantages associated mainly relate back towards initial cost analysis factor. Those who seek cheaper versions might opt into buying generic forms instead requesting name brands. But this sometimes leads into having bad quality final performance result since certain chemicals might have different mixing ratios based upon factors like soil type (clay vs sand), resulting overall lower effectiveness output end piece unless modifications made upon instructions label prior usage carried out properly following all guidelines listed accordingly. Otherwise, risk losing money spent without seeing desirable outcome expected. Henceforth, why budgeting ahead important aspect consider beforehand carrying project forward regarding lawn care tips, especially when dealing high-grade products containing hazardous material handling procedures needed completed first. Even though safety precautions should always be taken no matter the situation arises involving fertilizers, insecticides, fungicides, disinfectants, etcetera being purchased, make sure to perform research necessary, ask questions whenever doubt exists, clear up confusion immediately, and prevent causing further problems down the line.

Thank you very much for your input throughout the entire process. Going smoothly so far, I hope to continue the same fashion upcoming step focused around crabgrass killing abilities. 24d formula capable of offering. Let’s investigate deeper, shall we see what we uncover next.

Effectiveness on Crabgrass

We can confidently say that 2,4-D weed killers are effective in eliminating pesky crabgrass from our lawns! When using this herbicide to control the growth of crabgrass, it’s important to consider factors such as watering frequency and soil pH.

The application technique should be adjusted depending on these conditions for optimal results. Additionally, soil aeration may be necessary before applying 2,4-D so that water and nutrients can reach the roots of the weeds better.

It’s also important to properly identify which type of grass you have in order for efficient treatment with this broadleaf weed killer; otherwise, you might end up damaging other desirable turfgrasses inadvertently.

To ensure its effectiveness when used against weeds like jenny or bitter wintercress, however, requires an accurate mixing ratio and instructions specific to each brand – an essential step prior to continuing with any further treatments on your lawns.

Mixing Ratio and Instructions

Mixing Ratio and InstructionsWe mix 2.5 ounces of 2,4-D weed killer with each gallon of water to treat a 400 square feet area and ensure we follow the instructions label for best results.

Applying tips include making sure that when applying it’s not windy or rainy to avoid drift onto desired plants, using fan nozzles on sprayers which’ll help reduce environmental impact by avoiding overspray, and controlling the application rate as per label instructions.

Alternatives to 2,4 d exist such as Trimec Southern Broadleaf Herbicide for St Augustine grass, while Drive XLR8 Herbicide works well on crabgrass without affecting other species in your lawn.

Proper storage and disposal of unused herbicides should also be taken into account.

Best Time to Apply

We should apply 2,4-D weed killer on our lawns when the weeds are still in their infancy for best results – that’s a surefire way to keep them away! To ensure optimum weed control and prevent any potential runoff, it is important to closely follow the instructions indicated on the product label.

The application rate will vary depending on the concentration of active ingredient present in each formulation and also refers to how much of it needs to be applied per square foot or acre. Additionally, watering tips such as ensuring you water your grass deeply after applying 2,4-D can help promote plant health too.

Applying this herbicide at lower temperatures below 90 F would reduce its volatility which could cause damage other plants like flowers nearby during hot weather conditions.

Lastly, before we begin our treatment plan for fighting invasive weeds with 2,4-D herbicides, let us not forget about timing: springtime is usually considered ideal but take into account local climate conditions as well since they might influence optimal periods differently from one region physical environment another’s.

Precautions When Applying

Precautions When ApplyingWe should always take precautions when applying 2,4-D weed killer to our lawns, as it can have harmful effects on other plants and turfgrass. It’s important that we use protective gear such as long sleeves and gloves while spraying this herbicide.

We must also be aware of local regulations regarding the application of any pesticide in our area. In addition, we should consider the temperature when applying 2,4-D – products like Hi-Yield Turf Ranger aren’t recommended for soil temperatures above 90°F (32°C).

Furthermore, water runoff from treated areas should be avoided in order to protect nearby vegetation or bodies of water from contamination by the chemical agent.

In conclusion, proper preparation is essential before using a systemic herbicide like 2 4 D for control over weeds in one’s property. Following safety protocols concerning usage will ensure no unintended consequences arise due to misapplication or oversight during execution.

Harmful Effects on Other Plants

We need to be careful when applying 2,4-D as it can have unintended consequences on other plants in our lawns like a butterfly in the wind. It’s important to consider not only the benefits of using this chemical herbicide but also its environmental impact and potential harm.

Although organic alternatives, such as non-toxic weed control methods or chemical-free lawn treatments, may take more time and effort, they could help alleviate concerns about negative effects from chemicals like 2,4-D that might affect other plants unintentionally.

When combined with proper lawn maintenance tips, such as mowing regularly at an appropriate height for grass species and removing weeds before they go into seed production mode, these organic approaches can provide long-term benefits without any risk of detrimental side effects.

By understanding both the advantages and disadvantages associated with using an herbicide containing 2,4-D, we’re better prepared to make decisions regarding how best to manage our grassy areas safely while still achieving desired results without compromising natural ecosystems within our yards or gardens.

Rainproof Time

We recommend waiting at least six hours for the 2,4-D weed killer to become rainproof before any showers occur.

Taking into account environmental impact, weather conditions, and soil quality are all key factors when determining application frequency of this herbicide.

When applied frequently or improperly, it can lead to disease control issues that could ultimately damage your lawn’s health.

To ensure a successful outcome, we suggest using a fan-type nozzle. This will help spread the herbicide evenly across the intended area while minimizing contact with other plants and keeping it out of waterways where it might have an adverse effect on aquatic life.

Use of Fan-type Nozzle

We recommend using a fan-type nozzle when applying 2,4-D for optimal weed control. This ensures that the herbicide is evenly applied and efficiently covers your lawn areas. The cost benefit analysis of using this type of nozzle will be evident as it reduces the amount of product used while still providing effective applications results in terms of eliminating weeds from your lawns.

Furthermore, by utilizing a fan-type nozzle, you’re able to decrease water pollution, which can occur with conventional sprayers due to overspray or runoff into nearby bodies such as lakes or streams.

Additionally, there are various advantages associated with investing in a quality product like Drive XLR8 Herbicide, whose active ingredient prevents resistant strains from developing thus ensuring successful long-term management solutions against perennial grassy weeds like crabgrass.

Limitations of 2,4-d

We must be careful when using 2,4-D as it can harm other plants and cause unintended consequences if not applied properly. To ensure its effective use, we should always seek professional advice before applying any herbicide to our lawns.

Additionally, proper classification of 2,4-D is important in order to limit the possibility of harming other plants like flowers. It’s also important that we know how long it takes for the weed killer to become rainproof, which is usually one hour after application.

Knowing this will help us plan when would be the best time for us to apply the herbicide without having potential rainfall wash away all our efforts beforehand.

The weeds killed by a particular type of 2,4 D formula varies depending on concentration levels, so it’s essential for us to choose an appropriate mix ratio according to the number and types of weeds present in specific areas such as lawns or turfgrass, etc.

We need to bear in mind that certain grassy weeds won’t respond positively even with strong grass weed killers, while others may require non-selective formulas.

With these limitations in mind, we can move forward confidently, knowing exactly what kind of application areas are suitable for various kinds of 24 D products available on the market today.

Application on Various Areas

We need to take into consideration the mixing ratio, timing, and application rate when applying 2,4-D on lawns and other areas. It’s important to understand these factors to get the most out of your weed control efforts while minimizing potential environmental impact or health risks.

Here are a few points we should consider:

  • Environmental Impact – The amount of active ingredient used should be reduced as much as possible for larger applications such as driveways or fence rows.
  • Health Risks – Protective clothing, gloves, and masks must always be worn when handling 2,4-D herbicides due to its toxicity level.
  • Storage Tips – Unused product must always be stored away from children’s reach in a cool, dry place with temperatures below 30°C (86°F).
  • Equipment Requirements – For best results, use hand sprayers like knapsack type backpack sprayers that deliver even pressure throughout an area without leaving streaks or lines visible after drying up.
  • Dose Adjustment – Always adjust the dose according to plant species targeted and size/age of weeds being treated; smaller doses can work against small grasses but may not kill more mature ones effectively.

With all this information at our disposal, let’s now move forward towards understanding which weeds are susceptible to this powerful broadleaf killer!

List of Weeds 2,4-d Kills

Weeds wilt and wither when we wield 2,4-D! There are a wide range of weeds that succumb to the effects of this herbicide. These include Alder, Canada thistle, Galinsoga, Marijuana, Purslane and Toadflax – all broadleaf species with varying levels of resistance.

We can also use 2 4 D blanket spray for clover control in addition to these troublesome plants. Bitter wintercress, creeping indigo, and jenny are other types that can be killed by it. As such, it’s important to understand their resistance levels as well as have an understanding of alternative herbicides which could be used if necessary based on the situation at hand.

It’s essential also to take into account application tips, particularly when using 24d around turfgrass or ornamental areas where caution must be taken before spraying weed killers so as not to damage those delicate plants or grasses nearby.

Additionally, environmental impact should always be considered too, since excessive usage leading to contamination from runoff water is possible, ruining soil habitats for many animals, insects, and even microorganisms living within them.

So no matter what type of weed is being faced, having knowledge about how to use it safely and effectively is key to successfully removing any annoying invaders in lawns, gardens, and fields alike.

Caution When Using on Turfgrass

We should exercise caution when using 2,4-D on turfgrass as it can harm other plants and cause bare spots in our lawns. Organic alternatives to 2,4-D are available which reduce environmental impact and minimize health risks associated with the chemical.

When applying this herbicide, precautions must be taken such as proper disposal of unused product and avoiding applying during windy conditions. Additionally, one must ensure that they use appropriate ratios according to their specific application needs for optimal results without harming surrounding vegetation or polluting the environment further.

It’s important to apply carefully while being aware of any potential problems that could arise from improper usage so that we can enjoy a healthy green lawn without compromising safety or nature’s beauty.

Specific Use on Broadleaf and Clover

We all know that 2,4-D can be a great help in controlling weeds in your lawn, but when it comes to broadleaf and clover, you’ll want to take extra care. Before applying the herbicide on turfgrass or ornamental plants, consider the environmental impact.

Applying too much of this weed killer could harm them as well. Proper application is key for optimal results and maximum control of these pesky weeds without damaging desirable vegetation such as grasses.

Additionally, using proper techniques like spot spraying will reduce overspray into areas with desired plants; reducing any potential damage from drift or runoff caused by improper application methods.

When dealing with broadleafs and clovers specifically, there are certain steps that should be taken during both treatment and maintenance stages. This includes checking for signs of weed resistance prior to application along with regular mowing practices which will increase effectiveness while also helping create an overall healthier looking lawn appearance through consistent lawn care tips/tricks implemented throughout its use cycle over time.

As long as you make sure to follow all directions listed on product labels regarding mixing ratios resulting from active ingredients concentrations found within each brand’s respective formula – combined with thorough knowledge about timing requirements needed before rain exposure – then proper usage is achievable even if it requires additional research into other helpful resources related yet distinct topics concerning efficient management strategies associated not only towards successful removal but most importantly prevention against future growth cycles altogether.

Transitioning now, we look at some common types of weeds which can effectively be eliminated using 2,4-D formulas available today-

Weeds That 2,4-d Can Kill

We have researched the weeds that 2,4-D can kill and how much of it should be used per gallon for lawns. We’ve found that this herbicide is effective against a wide range of broadleaf weeds including Alder, Canada thistle, Galinsoga, Marijuana and Purslane as well as some grassy weeds such as Bitter wintercress and Creeping indigo.

Moreover, you’ll need to mix 3 to 4 fluid ounces per 1 000 square feet when using Hi-Yield 2 ,4 – D Blanket Spray on broadleaf or clover in order to get the desired results.

Let’s take a closer look at the types of weeds 2,4-D can effectively get rid of so we can create that perfect lawn! Here are some common weed varieties that 2,4-D will help control:
  • Alder
  • Canada thistle
  • Galinsoga
  • Marijuana
  • Purslane
  • Toadflax
  • Alligator weed
  • Carolina geranium
  • Bitter wintercress
  • Creeping indigo
  • Jenny

Using weather conditions to your advantage is key when applying this herbicide, as it allows for optimal absorption into the weeds you’re targeting. Benefits such as better coverage and increased effectiveness come with professional application, which should always be taken into consideration if planning on using a chemical like 2,4-D.

Additionally, application frequency depends on how much growth there is in your lawn and what type of grass or weeds you have growing there; organic alternatives might also be an option depending on what kind of results are desired from treating one’s lawn.

Finally, proper storage techniques must be employed upon purchasing any type of product containing chemicals like 2,4-D, making sure not to expose them directly to sunlight or high temperatures for long periods of time.

Understanding these few pieces of information makes Alex Kuritz’s expertise in lawn care even more valuable when striving towards achieving the perfect-looking turf.

Alex Kuritz’s Expertise in Lawn Care

With years of experience in lawn care, Alex Kuritz is the expert to turn to for advice on how we can best treat our lawns with 2,4-D weed killer.

He advocates for a healthy soil environment above all else. With an eye towards environmental impact reduction and organic solutions whenever possible, he understands that proper maintenance of your lawn requires thoughtful consideration when it comes to selecting herbicides such as 2,4-D.

While many may think that blanket spraying is sufficient weed control solution or using harsh chemicals at high rates are necessary for effective results; Alex firmly believes in using just enough product combined with spot treating techniques instead where applicable.

He also recommends overseeding after any treatment period which helps reduce bare spots while promoting healthy grass growth even further! In this way, he ensures both long-term sustainability and maximum effectiveness from his treatments.

Ultimately, knowing exactly how much 24d per gallon needs to be applied will ensure optimal results without overdoing it or causing damage to other plants nearby.

How Much 2,4-d Per Gallon for Lawns:

We mix a generous two and a half ounces of 2,4-D into each gallon of water to treat an area of up to four hundred square feet. This method provides excellent coverage for the desired weeds without causing excessive harm to other plants in the vicinity.

Applying techniques are important when using this herbicide as it can have environmental impacts if not used properly or allowed to run off into nearby streams or rivers. Natural alternatives like corn gluten meal may be useful in controlling some weed species but they don’t provide broad spectrum control like synthetic 2,4-D does against all sorts of common lawn weeds such as dandelion, clover and thistle.

In addition, proper storage is essential because improper storage can cause decreased potency due to its sensitivity towards light and heat which reduces its effectiveness over time.

Weed resistance is becoming more prevalent with many products so rotating types periodically may help prevent tolerance build up from repeated use on certain areas year after year thus improving effectiveness overall.

Ask a Pro:

We know that lawn care can be a complicated task, and it’s important to seek professional advice when applying 2,4-D weed killer. That’s why we recommend consulting with Alex Kuritz, who has years of experience in caring and tending for lawns.

He can help you determine the right mixing ratio and application rate for your lawn so that you get the best results possible.

Importance of Seeking Professional Advice

We understand the importance of seeking professional advice when applying 2,4-D to ensure that we’re using it safely and efficiently – like a skilled painter with their brush! Knowing the growth cycle of weeds, environmental impacts, research studies on health risks associated with this herbicide, as well as time management for best results can be complex topics.

To help us make informed decisions regarding our lawns and gardens, we must look into these areas:

  • Examining weed life cycles to determine optimal timing for application
  • Researching potential environmental impacts from usage
  • Investigating any health risks associated with 2,4-D use
  • Ensuring proper mixing ratios based on an area’s size

Having access to knowledgeable experts in these fields helps us get the most out of our efforts while protecting ourselves from any harm. Asking a pro ensures that they can provide current information about new developments or regulations related to product usage, which allows us greater control over treatments without wasting resources or creating unnecessary risk.

Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs)

What other herbicides can be used in place of 2,4-D?

When it comes to weed control, 2,4-D is a widely used herbicide. While it can be effective for controlling broadleaf weeds in lawns and ornamental turf areas, there are alternatives that may be safer and more sustainable.

Organic options such as vinegar or salt sprays can help manage weeds without the need of harsh chemicals. For those looking for an organic solution with longer lasting effect, soil testing and weed identification should come first so proper amendments can be added to your soil type before applying any pesticide applications.

Additionally, certain pre-emergent herbicides like Drive XLR8 Herbicide can provide excellent crabgrass control while still being safe on Bermuda grasses.

How much 2,4-D should be used per acre?

We understand that you want to protect your lawn without over-applying hazardous chemicals. Using 2,4-D is an effective way to treat weeds, but it’s important to be aware of the environmental impact and potential herbicide residues from using this chemical.

The amount of 2,4-D used per acre depends on what type of weed you are trying to control and the size or area being treated. Generally speaking, a mix rate for small areas would require 3 – 4 fluid ounces per 1,000 square feet in order for it to be effective against broadleaf weeds and clover.

Organic alternatives such as vinegar solutions can also help with treating certain types of weeds; however, they may not always provide adequate coverage compared with other herbicides like 2,4-D.

What are some other safety precautions when applying 2,4-D?

We know that when it comes to applying 2,4-D, safety should always come first. Before spraying 2,4-D weed killers on turfgrass or other plants, you must be sure of your target weeds by properly identifying them and using proper PPE.

You should also ensure that you follow the application guidelines for mixing ratios and application rate depending on the concentration of active ingredients in a particular herbicide formula. The best time to apply is usually during spring when temperatures are below 90°F – this ensures optimal results without harming nearby desirable plants or flowers.

Additionally, pay attention to wind direction while spraying so as not to reduce efficacy due to drift onto non-target areas such as neighbor’s lawns or gardens!

What type of nozzle should be used when spraying 2,4-D?

When using 2,4-D herbicide on your lawn, it’s important to use the correct nozzle for spraying. A fan-type nozzle should be used for best results, which helps prevent over-application of the product and ensures even coverage across your entire lawn.

Proper storage and use of this chemical can have a positive environmental impact by reducing runoff into surrounding plants or water sources.

Knowing exactly how much 2,4-D per gallon is necessary for effective weed control is key. Following label instructions carefully helps with proper application techniques and avoids any damage from overuse or misuse of this powerful herbicide.

Is there a specific time of year when 2,4-D should be applied?

When it comes to weed control, timing is everything. We recommend applying 2,4-D in the spring when weeds are still young and just starting to grow. This way, you can get maximum effectiveness from your herbicide and minimize any potential damage or harm that could be caused by using too much of a product at once.

It’s important to note that different grass types require different application techniques, so make sure you know what type of lawn you have before spraying anything! Additionally, causes such as temperature changes or poor plant nutrition can also play a role in how well the 2,4-D works on your lawn.

So, it’s important to take these factors into account when deciding when is best for treating with this particular herbicide.

Conclusion

We’ve discussed a lot of information about 2,4-D herbicide, from its definition and how it works, to its classification, safety, and effectiveness.

We’ve also gone over the mixing ratio, the best time to apply, and the precautions to take when using it.

In addition, we’ve listed the weeds that it can kill and the importance of seeking professional advice.

Now that we’ve gone over the basics, it’s time to get down to business. For lawns, the ideal mixing ratio is 2.5 oz of 2,4-D per 1 gallon of water to treat 400 square feet of weed-infested area.

Remember to seek advice from a pro if you’re uncertain about your lawn’s needs. With the right knowledge and preparation, you’ll be able to keep your lawn looking healthy and lush all year round.

Avatar for Mutasim Sweileh

Mutasim Sweileh

Mutasim is a published author and software engineer and agriculture expert from the US. To date, he has helped thousands of people make their yards lush and thick.